Mia Wisinski, on stepmum life, the Winoceros, and being safe to be silly.

Lael Stone: Ah, the human experience, with our flaws, our passions, our triggers, our inspirations, and our imprints. If we could see behind everyone’s story, then perhaps what we would have is deep compassion. In this podcast, I get the chance to explore these stories from some truly fascinating people in some honest and heartwarming conversations. And best of all, I get to share these discussions with you. I’m Lael Stone, and this is Humans, being.

Welcome to Humans, being. I’m Lael Stone, and my humanness for today, in this actual moment as I’m recording this podcast, is gonna be about children again, because it’s very alive in my life at the moment, uh, particularly around the stages that our children go through in life. And so often we’re, we’re told when our kids are little, “Just enjoy it. It goes so quickly,” and, you know, “Just cherish these moments.” And when you’re in the middle of, like, sleep deprivation and toddlers throwing stuff, you know, at you, and just all the challenges of it, I think it’s one of the last things you wanna hear, because you’re like, “What?

This is, this is hard, this stage.” Yet, as your kids grow and as they get older, you know, we really do look back and, and I think we look back with rose-colored glasses going, “Oh, I would just love to just, like, snuggle my son as a 4-year-old again or hold that newborn baby in my arms.” I mean, there’s something that, that just makes us all nostalgic for those times. I think sometimes we forget the tricky parts of when we’re actually, you know… But it’s really made me think about the growth and development as a parent and what we navigate.

And I think back to me as a parent 26 years ago now with absolutely no idea, completely clueless, like, making it up as I went along. I didn’t even have any friends that had kids, so couldn’t even really compare myself to them. I was just trying to figure it out as I went, and often feeling overwhelmed about knowing what to do as, as each stage comes. And a very wise, wise… I think it was actually my midwife from my second baby said the words so beautifully, “Each stage prepares us for the next.”

And I remember just holding that as, “Okay, I don’t need to know what will happen when they start high school now when they’re little,” or, you know, “I don’t need to navigate, um, what that’s gonna be like when they get a boyfriend or a girlfriend, you know, because they’re only 5,” right? So all those things where often I would project into the future would make me kind of bring myself back to just be where that is now. And so I think it’s very easy as parents that we can often look back and we can be nostalgic, which is really beautiful, or when we’re in a certain season, we can look to the future and feel overwhelmed about what’s that gonna look like. I mean, I have so many parents say to me, “I’m terrified about my kids becoming teenagers.” And what I say to them is, “Teenagers are the best.

They’re so fun. They’re amazing.” It’s a different skill set that you need as a parent. Like, you’re gonna be stretched, but my God, they’re amazing. And I think often if we can just stay present to where we are now, that can be very helpful.

So in this moment as I’m speaking this, I’m giving myself my own advice to just be where I am now, which is that, you know, my kiddos are about to go off traveling. Probably when they come back, you know, one or two of them might move out of home. Like, I think this is really the last time that all five of us will be together under the, under the one roof before partners come in and grandbabies come and all that kind of stuff. And, and part of me is gonna, you know, feels like I wanna grieve that already, and then I’m reminding myself, “Just be here now and enjoy this beautiful magic while it exists.” And I did hear something the other day that the average age of a child now moving out of home is 28, so I’m like, “Okay.”

[laughing] It’s a shock, isn’t it, when you think, “28? Are you kidding me?” Well, that’s here in Australia, you know, but I think the cost of living, house prices, it’s… I kind of am not surprised that that’s where it is. So there might be some parents going, “Oh, hell no.

They gotta go before that.” [laughing] And then there’s others that are like, “Oh, yeah, that’s amazing.” And I’ve shared this before on my podcast, but I mean, having… Living with adult kids is just the best. It’s so beautiful.

It’s like living in a really clean and awesome share house. That’s what it feels like [laughing] ‘cause it’s fun, and there’s people come over and, you know, they cook a meal one night each a week, and they contribute, and it’s really beautiful, and I’m just cherishing this, this beautiful moment for now. So my invitation to anybody listening is, can you be with where you are now? Not, you know, look too far into the future and not look back, but just be in this moment now with the beautiful humans that you have. All right.

My guest for today, I’m so excited about this. I’d do a happy dance if I can, because I have with me the amazing Mia Wisinski. And I’m gonna just, uh, well, firstly, welcome, Mia. I am so happy you are here.

Mia Wisinski: Thanks, Lael. I’m so happy to be here.

Lael Stone: I’m gonna just read a little bit about Mia. If any of you are parents and you are listening, then you need to quick smart hop onto Instagram and follow this woman, because she brings all the joy and all the playfulness to parenting in the most magnificent way. So Mia is a US-based founder of Playful Heart Parenting. That’s her Instagram handle. We’ll have it in our show notes, @playfulheartparenting.

This is a platform she built from scratch that has since grown to over half a million followers on Instagram. She’s a former theater educator, performer, and songwriter with a BFA in musical theater from California State University. And Mia brings a background steeped in creative play to her parenting work. Her approach centers on making playfulness accessible to ordinary parents in the middle of ordinary, often overwhelming days. She’s a mother to two young children and a stepmom, and draws openly on her own family life, including the particular pressures of step-parenting as context for her work.

Her content and programs focus on the practical, short, easy activities that shift the energy in a home, reduce parental frustration, and build genuine connection between parents and kids. Now, I am all about play. I am all about play as connection, as healing, as ways that children learn. And I know from, you know, raising my own kiddos that sometimes the most powerful thing we can do is make a fart noise in the middle of something stressful. [laughs]

Mia Wisinski: Mm-hmm.

Lael Stone: So I am just so thrilled to have you here because, Mia, you just, you are like the queen of play for me.

Mia Wisinski: [laughs]

Lael Stone: Before we dive into these questions, um, what I was talking about with my humanness of just being in this moment and time passing, like, how, how does that sit for you? Where, where does that land for you in those words that I spoke?

Mia Wisinski: Mm. I love it because I am one of those people that, uh, when people say, “Oh, just enjoy it, you know, just enjoy it now while you can,” it doesn’t comfort me. It throws me into a panic, and, [laughs] and then I feel sad because I don’t know how I can savor it any more than I already am. I’m trying so hard. Like, what else can I do?

I can’t freeze time. Um, and so just a few weeks ago, I was writing about this, and then the phrase, um, “no expiration date” came into my head. Because when… A lot of times people will say, “Just wait till they’re teens,” to me, and, uh, I wanna say, “There’s no expiration date on enjoying each other.”

Lael Stone: Yeah.

Mia Wisinski: I plan, fully plan to have a life like you’re saying, where teens are the best, and we can have so much fun and laugh so hard together and have a whole different sense of humor together, and I believe we will have that. Um, and so it’s so nice to hear. I think, you know, that doesn’t get said enough. And I know I’ll look back and, and miss them, but I try not to guilt myself in the moment of some kind of, “I’m not enjoying it enough.” Like, I’m not-

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm

Mia Wisinski: … I’m not, you know, taking advantage and cuddling them enough, because I am as much as I can while still having to cook and work and clean and do all the things.

Lael Stone: Yeah.

Mia Wisinski: Um, and so it was comforting to hear you say that.

Lael Stone: I mean, it’s like there’s another pressure, “And enjoy them.”

Mia Wisinski: [laughs]

Lael Stone: “Do all the things. Connect with them. Play with them. Do all this, and enjoy them.” Like, this whole other added pressure.

We don’t need any of that, so how about we just be in the moments, right?

Mia Wisinski: Oh, man.

Lael Stone: So I would love to ask you, you know, you just share so much gorgeousness on social media about what you do with your kids with play, getting them to cooperate, even just some of the absolute gorgeous playfulness that you do with your husband. Did you come to mothering as a playful person? Like, were you one that was like, “I’m gonna be the most playful mom ever,” or was it something that just had to develop for you?

Mia Wisinski: That’s a really good question. I’ll say I did not come to mothering as playful, but I was a very playful person. I have a theater background. I’m very goofy. I’m not afraid to make weird faces and noises.

I mean, in college, I was having to roll around on the floor making whale sounds. Like, that was just part of my training, you know? So I’m very comfortable being silly and weird, and I’ve been a theater performer and theater director with children. But I became a stepmom before I became a mom, and that was just kind of sudden and unexpected, and I, I completely… I mean, I say completely, but I do watch videos from back then sometimes, and I’m like, “Okay, I wasn’t as stern and strict and serious as I thought I was all the time.”

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: But I think I thought of playfulness as an extra for, like, j- just on the back burner instead of something to put up at the forefront of my values and try as you s- I love this, and I got this from you, ‘cause you don’t know this, but I used to walk around and listen to you on podcasts, you know-

Lael Stone: Oh, my goodness

Mia Wisinski: … like, when I started all of this. And so it’s very full circle to be talking to you now. But you say, you know, “What would love look like right here?”

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: Or, “What would this look like?” And I think, like, “What would, what could playfulness look like right now?” and put that filter over it. I didn’t know how to do that then with things like power struggles and tasks and routines. And so I was playful and silly sometimes, but I had this idea in my head of, “Oh, I’m a parent now. I better, like, buckle down and be serious and have a sticker chart and a schedule and a this and a that.”

And it wasn’t really me, but I was just kind of following what I’d seen friends doing or seeing on the internet and really caught up in trying to- … do all the things right, and it did take me some time to loosen my grip and get back to myself. It, it took, um, until after the birth of my son. So, I met my stepdaughter when she was one, and she was five when he was born.

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: So it took, yeah, it took about five years-

Lael Stone: Mm

Mia Wisinski: … to find that.

Lael Stone: Mm. That space. I, I’m, I’m also thinking too, that added dynamic of being a step-parent, which is different to being a parent as well. Was that tricky trying to find, like, “Where is my place in all this? How do I turn up in that?”

How was that for you?

Mia Wisinski: Absolutely. It’s one of those roles that you just can’t understand until you’re in it. People will always say, like, “You know what you signed up for,” but you really don’t. You just never know what you signed up for in anything in life, right, until you’re in it. And so, yes, I felt a lot of pressure to do everything even extra right.

When she was in my care, it felt like I have to earn the right to be here by being the best stepmom. Like, the best, most fun, the most perfect, most together. Like, gotta teach her manners, gotta feed her healthy, organic food, gotta learn how to cook. Like, I didn’t know how to cook, you know? And, um, and I was just feeling like I needed to do all that was not helping anyone, and no one was-

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm

Mia Wisinski: … telling me I had to do all that. It was like an inner voice of, you know, if you’re, if you’re someone’s mom, you, like, you give birth to them, that’s that. You’re their mom, and you, you don’t have to do anything to earn that love, the right to be there to have that role. But being a step-parent, even before… ‘Cause, you know, you’re not automatically a legal stepmom.

You’re the girlfriend, and it’s-

Lael Stone: Mm

Mia Wisinski: … it’s messy, you know? And, like, “Well, what if, what if this doesn’t work out? But I’m in love with this child now.” And it’s very complicated, and it’s very painful-

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm

Mia Wisinski: … in a lot of ways to feel like you don’t know where you fit in. And so I don’t miss those early days [laughs] because it was really, really hard, and now we have… She’s 10 now. We have a really established, beautiful relationship, but it’s grown over the years and has gotten easier over the years. But yeah, it was messy at the beginning and really hard.

So yeah, if any step-parents out there are listening to this right now, my heart goes out to you because it is, it’s a tough gig. [laughs] And it-

Lael Stone: Yeah

Mia Wisinski: … it’s different for everyone. It, it matters how old the children are, and, you know, she was a baby, and so we didn’t have that aspect. But yeah, that’s a… Thank you for that question.

Lael Stone: Yeah, it’s really tricky, isn’t it? I think because of the roles that we stand in, knowing, like, I can hear from many people, it’s like, “I don’t want to overstep, but I also want to build my own connection.” It’s also then being in relationship with your partner, who’s their parent, and their relationship and dynamic. It can, it’s, it can be a lot in, in a, you know, I, I hear that from a lot of parents who are step-parents. There is a different level of complexity that comes, comes with it, for sure.

Mia Wisinski: You’re asked to love them as your own-

Lael Stone: Mm

Mia Wisinski: … but you have to be careful not to overstep.

Lael Stone: Yes.

Mia Wisinski: And so it’s very, very tricky to find just that balance of what’s not gonna offend anyone or step on any toes or-

Lael Stone: Yeah

Mia Wisinski: … be too far, but you still have to care enough and be involved enough. And it’s, it is, it’s, yeah, I think all step-parents, to a certain degree, feel that pull.

Lael Stone: Mm. Yeah, 100%. So play is something I’ve spoken a lot about over the years as such a brilliant tool to facilitate connection with children. So, you know, when, where there is disconnection, we haven’t seen each other enough for the day, or we’ve been away, that kind of stuff, play is one of the most beautiful ways to bring connection to each other. It can also be such a brilliant tool to help get our kids to cooperate when they won’t brush their teeth or get in the bath.

Uh, and it also is such a window into children’s, how they view the world, right? So I often say, “If you want to know what’s going on with a child, watch them play.” So we know that play is so powerful as a tool in, in parenting. So my, I guess, big question around this is, I know a lot of parents who say, “I’m not playful at all.” Like, and you talk about, “How about you do some play?”

And they kind of roll their eyes ‘cause they’re like, “Oh, this is just another thing that I have to do.” What is your advice to parents when it comes to parents feeling stressed already, and they’re like, “I’ve got to now play”? And we know how hard it is to play when we’re feeling stressed, because when we’re feeling stressed and our nervous system’s activated, it’s hard to sometimes step into that. What’s your take on how we can help shift some of that?

Mia Wisinski: Yes. Well, I listened to your podcast interview with Ben.

Lael Stone: Oh, yeah.

Mia Wisinski: And I loved that he was talking about how play is hard to define, like the word love, and-

Lael Stone: Mm

Mia Wisinski: … everybody has a different idea of it. And so my little personal definition of it, this is not like a textbook thing, this is just Mia. My definition of play is just the opposite of serious. And I know that’s not what the researchers say, but if, as a parent, if I can think about it, just taking myself not serious, then that opens up a whole new window to what play can mean. Because I think when we as parents hear play, we immediately have this vision of sitting on the floor and playing dolls or pushing trains around or, like, becoming some kind of…

Like, doing a horsey ride or, like, playing tea party and all these kind of classic pretend play scenarios that don’t sound fun for us, and we’re distracted and… But if it can be something, like, just today, I was buckling my friend’s son into his car seat ‘cause she was holding her baby, and she was crying, and he didn’t want me to buckle him. He wanted his mom, but I knew I needed to help her, and I said, “Oh, you know, this, the…” Weirdest thing always happens to me when I’m buckling children in car seats. When I snap the buckle in, it always farts at me, you know?

And I, I s- he, like, got quiet and listened, and I snapped it and, you know, made a fart noise, and he giggled. And I did it for each one, and I was like, “Oh, pee-yew, this always happens,” you know? And it, it totally helped him, you know, calm and connect to me and, and relate. And I have a million moments of those a day with my kids now that I… I don’t know how much I did before I started this work and started to really realize how important and powerful it was, but now I look for them any chance I get.

And they don’t require nearly… They really don’t require any energy.

Lael Stone: Yeah.

Mia Wisinski: They, in fact, give me energy because then I feel that little, like, rush of the giggle or whatever, you know? Are there days where I don’t have the capacity to do that, or I’m stressed and I’m like, “Get in the car seat,” and I’m holding them down, and I’m like, “Stop, I don’t, I can’t answer any questions right now.” Yes, I, I also have those moments every day too.

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: Um, it’s not a 24/7 thing, but I think if we can expand our definition of play and think about more how can we be a little bit more silly or take ourselves less seriously, and it doesn’t all have to be fart jokes, although I am a big proponent for them [laughs] because it’s just a quick, easy one, especially for little kids. It’s a quick win. Um, the more we can sprinkle in little moments of that throughout the day, especially when we’re not desperate for, to try to trick them into, to cooperating, but just to say like, “Hey, it’s safe to be silly here.”

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: ‘Cause at the heart of it all, playfulness and laughter make us feel safe.

Lael Stone: Yes.

Mia Wisinski: And that’s why, you know, we, like, evolved to laugh. And, and when we can all feel safe enough to be silly, that trickles into all the other energy. And it really, you know, I believe it should be up there at the forefront of the values with empathy and kindness and patience and playfulness. But it can sound daunting if you don’t have a broader vision of what it’s like, and you’re just kind of only imagining those classic scenarios. Does that make sense?

Lael Stone: It does make a lot of sense. And I, I guess my thing I think about is e- when I was, you know, a parent, particularly with young kids, and when I was stressed or I was stretched and I needed a break, a- and playfulness was the last thing I wanted to do. Like, and I was in that loop, you know, when you’re in the loop of just like, “Get in the car,” and you’re just feeling that.

Mia Wisinski: Mm-hmm.

Lael Stone: It’s really tricky sometimes, isn’t it, to snap ourselves out of that, to choose the playful option. Like, what, what is it for you that helps you go, “Uh, choose this instead,” or-

Mia Wisinski: Yeah

Lael Stone: … see if you can reorient?

Mia Wisinski: Yeah, so my friend Mallory actually came up with a great phrase for this that she thought I said, but I was like, “I never said that, but I’m stealing it now.” And I named my course after this, and it was activate play mode, like a little button, like a, like a little robot button.

Lael Stone: Yeah.

Mia Wisinski: And really, it’s been over, over the years when I’ve been able to do that, it’s been like an experiment.

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: I never regret it. It almost always goes more smoothly.

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: And even if the kid doesn’t go for it, I feel very proud of myself for not yelling or, you know, like at least-

Lael Stone: Yeah

Mia Wisinski: … broke the cycle, or it made myself laugh a little bit. Um, ‘cause I do, I… Getting in the car is just one of those examples where it’s like we’re running late always. We’re always running late, always. It’s so [laughs] hard for me to get out of the house, and I feel like my family just has this reputation like, “Oh, here come the Wosinskis again.

They’re an hour late. What’s new?” So I feel that stress, you know? My kids don’t care about that. It’s like that Bluey episode where she’s like, “You don’t care.

You’re kids.”

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: Um, and I will find myself wanting to be like, “You better get in that seat in three, two, one.”

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: But I will just catch myself in a millisecond and make it, like, activate play mode. So let it, let the energy come out in a silly way instead and an ex- um, playful way. So instead of like, “Three, two, one,” as a stern voice, I’ll go, “And we’re gonna blast off in three, two, can you get in your seat, and one.” Almost like a sports commentator or-

Lael Stone: Yeah

Mia Wisinski: … NASA, you know? And it almost always, he like jumps in, you know, because it’s inviting.

Lael Stone: Yeah.

Mia Wisinski: Um, same thing, like, in the bathroom the other day. My toddler’s trying to climb up on the toilet, and she’s gonna pull over all the things on her. And I think for me, it’s safety things where someone’s about to get hurt or break something.

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: That is my biggest trigger, I’ve learned-

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm

Mia Wisinski: … um, where my anger comes because it’s coming from the fear that my child’s gonna get hurt. And so that’s where I really snap quickly, and that’s why, oh gosh, when my baby was a baby and my son was a three-year-old and he just had no impulse control and was just barreling into everything like a bull in a china shop and knocking her over and headbutting her, I was screaming into the pillow every day because I just was so freaked out that she was gonna get hurt. In the bathroom the other day, I just wanted to yell, “Out, out, everybody out!” [laughs] You know? Um, and so I went, “Out, out, out, out, outly, outly, outly, outly, out, out.”

And then they were just like, “Out, out.” And they started singing with me. [laughs]

Lael Stone: [laughs]

Mia Wisinski: And they marched out. And I was like, “Oh, I’m glad I caught myself on that one,” you know?

Lael Stone: Yeah, yeah.

Mia Wisinski: ‘Cause now it’s a cute, sweet moment.

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: Um, and it’s really just that, like, it, it really takes some time, but when you have the strategies in your back pocket-

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm

Mia Wisinski: … and I have all these little strategies I’ve named for myself, like make it a musical, make it nonsense, uh, play the opposite. Like, “Oh, no, don’t, whatever you do, don’t do that. Oh, no, I’m gonna be scared if you brush your teeth. I’m gonna not recognize you and think there’s a stranger in my bed.” That’s my son’s favorite one lately.

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: He jumps in the bed and is, like, smiling, and I’m like, “Who are you? What have you done with my son?” And when I can pull from those in the moment, I never regret it, and it’s, it’s really, really fun, you know? It’s like a fun experiment. So I think- And then also having the grace for myself that it would be weird if I was perfectly robotically, like Mary Poppins playful all day long, and I didn’t ever show them…

They’d go into the real world and be like, “Huh? People aren’t… Don’t get angry?” And like-

Lael Stone: “People don’t sing to me when they want me to do something.” [laughs]

Mia Wisinski: [laughs] And so I do it as much as I can, and because I’m human, as much as I can is not all the time. [laughs] It’s, it’s plenty. Um, and I think if parents can even do it, like, one little moment a day is… Means a lot, you know? And the more you do it, the more you kind of get, like, addicted to it.

Like, oh, like, even sometimes at the park when I see kids struggling, it’s like, I, I almost want to, like, go up and be like, “Hey, how… Let’s race to the something something,” you know? And, like, finding, finding a different way, like, challenging myself. Like, “Oh, how can I make this fun?” Like, “How can I do that layal, you know, put a filter on it?

What, what could playfulness look like, like right now?” Uh, but if I’m hangry or I really have to pee or the baby’s screaming, of course, you know, I can’t always access that, and that’s okay.

Lael Stone: Yeah, and I think that’s so beautiful to know that is okay, ‘cause we all have days where we’re like, “No, I’ve got nothing in the tank,” or, “I just don’t want to be ‘cause I’m dealing with a whole lot of my other stuff that’s going on.” And it’s like all parts of parenting, isn’t it? Like, it’s no… There’s no one reality where we get to listen to every single one of our kids’ feelings, or we’re playful all the time, or we’re really grounded and anchored. Like, we’re humans, and we’ve got our own baggage that we kind of carry around, and, and we have our own needs as well.

So I think it is, it’s like all parts of parenting, we need so much grace with ourselves to just be like, “Yeah, I didn’t… That didn’t feel that good. I need to repair in that moment, but, you know, I, I know better.” But I think the thing I really take, um, from you, particularly that Activate Play mode, which is something that you created, an app for parents to, to work with, is the more tools we have in our toolkit, the easier it is for us to move towards them instead of just kind of freezing or yelling in those moments. And, and I would absolutely say that play takes practice, particularly if we grew up in a family where it is not playful at all, um, particularly if we grew up in a family, which I know a lot of adults, we were never played with, which most adults, you know, think…

When I ask them, you know, “When you were a kid, can you think about what your parents did to play with you?” And sometimes it was like, “We played Monopoly,” or, um, “We played cards, but then someone always get angry.” Um, or maybe, you know, “We would play cricket outside,” or something like that. Like, you know, it was… It wasn’t necessarily getting on the floor wrestling.

It wasn’t being silly with each other. The majority of people who are adults these days, when I talk to them about play and thinking about what their imprint was, was not one that was playful. You know, it wasn’t… It’s very rare. And so I think that that is also a bit of a barrier for some parents to step into that playfulness, that silliness, because we’re taught, and the imprint and the message we get is when we become adults, we should be serious.

You know, we should be, like, holding it together. Yet it’s actually kind of the opposite. To make the world work, the sillier we become, the more we allow ourselves to be creative and vulnerable in that way, often the more magic and connection actually happens. Do you find from, you know, all your work in this and also talking to many parents that that imprint of not being played with as a kid has an impact?

Mia Wisinski: Absolutely. Absolutely. And a lot of people, like, I came to that phrase safe to be silly because they didn’t have a home where it felt safe to be silly. That was kind of shut down. Um, and I’ll say that I’m very fortunate, um, to have grown up the child of two eccentric musical theater hippies.

I mean, we did our own Saturday Night Live style sketches in the living room. We turned off the TV and talked for the characters. We did a lot of theatrical games that involved, like, silly voices or quick thinking or just word games or costumes and beard, fake beards and fake teeth and whoopee cushions, and we didn’t really play board games, and we didn’t really play sports together. And so, uh, I did grow up with the exact kind of play that I feel is just the ultimate for that laughter and connection, and it’s why a lot of people, I think, see me play these games with my kids, and they’re like, “Wait a second. I want to play.

That actually looks fun.” You know? “Oh, I didn’t think about I could actually be having fun with my kids.” And, you know, even with as, as young as my four-year-old, we love to play I make the face, you make the sound, where I make a face, and he does the sound for it, and then we switch, and I can do that lying in the bed, you know?

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: But it always makes us laugh. And now my 10-year-old stepdaughter, we’ve been playing these improv games since she was, like, four, and she’s so quick and witty now. I love playing with her. It’s so fun. She’s hilarious.

She’s, like, way more witty than I am. But you don’t really get that background unless you are in theater because it’s just very specific to theater. And so, um, it’s why the arts are important. [laughs]

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: Every child should get to do theater at some point or at least have exposure to these kinds of games, because what they do that’s different than, like, a card game where everyone’s getting competitive and yelling or, like, a sports game where you’re trying to win is that there’s no right answer. There’s no wrong answer. There’s no winner. There’s no loser. There’s no power dynamics.

In fact, the game succeeds by you working together and, like in improv, they call it yes and, and, and working off each other and building on each other’s ideas rather than shutting them down. And it’s just, like, the ultimate way to play and connect and have fun together, and it’s why my theater students even- … cool high schoolers would jump up and play and be silly ‘cause they had that permission. So, I think a lot of people were never exposed to that, and that is definitely a, a, a muscle that I think if you’re an adult, it takes some time to come out of your comfort zone a little bit and be willing to look a little bit silly or make a ugly face or a weird sound and, and not worry what you look like.

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s a stretch, isn’t it? I mean, you know, they sometimes talk about bringing play into the corporate environments, and I just sit there and think, “Oof, that is confronting for a lot of people.” Because especially in corporate environments, we’re all like, “I have to look like I’ve got it all together,” and, you know, we often have our guards up.

I mean, in parenting, on some level, I feel like it’s a little bit easier because especially when we’ve got little kids, you know, they are always gonna lean towards play and joy and silliness. It’s like their default setting.

Mia Wisinski: Yeah.

Lael Stone: They’re like, “I, you know, this is…” I, they, it’s almost like they can’t resist it a lot of the time.

Mia Wisinski: Right.

Lael Stone: And so it’s easier to practice with our children being silly, making mistakes, because they’re very forgiving, and really, all children want is for us to connect with them in those ways. So it is a very good place to practice, you know, what it is to be silly and to be playful and see, and see what comes from that. It’s, you know, I mean, it’s the perfect, the perfect space to, to practice, really.

Mia Wisinski: Uh, aren’t you, aren’t you a little bit jealous? Like, don’t you wish that was our default? Like-

Lael Stone: Yeah

Mia Wisinski: … that we just couldn’t resist? I mean, it sounds so nice when you put it like that. [laughs]

Lael Stone: Yeah. Yeah.

Mia Wisinski: I wish that I could just… That could be my default. It sounds so nice.

Lael Stone: Yes.

Mia Wisinski: Of course, they don’t have the responsibilities and the stressors we have-

Lael Stone: Yeah

Mia Wisinski: … and it is how it is, but, but they’re so beautiful.

Lael Stone: Yeah.

Mia Wisinski: And it is so great to join them there.

Lael Stone: It is, isn’t it? And I just think we know, I mean, there’s a lot of science to back this up about what beautiful connections happen when we do that. Like, the oxytocin that’s released between us when we laugh, when we play, when we move into that energy, it is, it is good for our souls, as you say. And I love what you said earlier on is, it can give me energy, especially when I’m feeling tired. It can actually give me energy in those ways to make me be more present and allow to be there.

And I’m also just thinking about, you know, I have a few friends who are very playful. Like, in, you know, as soon as you pick up the phone or you chat to them, you end up just being silly together and be playful. I have a friend that just loves accents. Oh my God, she’s hilarious. And any opportunity, she just moves into an accent or something, and I mean, we laugh a lot together because there’s a playful streak.

You know, and some people you just find that with, which is-

Mia Wisinski: Yeah

Lael Stone: … just so joyous, isn’t it? When you have those friends or people in your life who equally are kind of up for play, that how good it is to be around them because it’s funny and you can be silly and you’re not taking yourself so seriously.

Mia Wisinski: Yes. I have some, some great friends like that, that, and I’m sure anyone listening is probably like, “Oh, yep, I have a person like that,” you know?

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: And you feel so close to them because you feel like you can truly be yourself. If you can be-

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm

Mia Wisinski: … like that with someone, you can just let your guard down, which is the best.

Lael Stone: Yeah. Yeah. I wanna just touch on this bit, uh, because I know from a parenting point of view that sometimes when our kiddos have got some stuff going on, and we can sometimes try playfulness and it doesn’t land, right?

Mia Wisinski: Yeah.

Lael Stone: Because often, and the way I describe it is they’ve got a big backpack full of feelings, and it’s like, doesn’t matter how funny you’re trying to be with me, you know, they’re often sometimes looking for a boundary to push up against so those feelings can kind of come out. And I think that’s a really beautiful thing to just highlight because when I was raising my kids, play was always my default first. Like, if my kids didn’t wanna do any something or were disconnected, I’d always move to playfulness first to see if they would take the bait-

Mia Wisinski: Mm-hmm

Lael Stone: … and then see if we could bring some connection, we could move on. But there were days where it was like, I’d try and be silly, and they’d just look back at you, and you’re like, “Yeah, no, that’s not working [laughs] today.”

Mia Wisinski: Mm-hmm.

Lael Stone: And actually, sometimes what was needed was just a limit or a boundary and that they had to get upset, you know, and those feelings were gonna come out. And, and I just wanted to highlight that on this call because, you know, we can try lots of playfulness, particularly if this is something new, but I think it’s really good to hold that for sometimes, um, the play isn’t the answer. Sometimes it’s just us being calm, anchored, and letting them push up against whatever that no is, and then they need to let some feelings out. And then they usually reset, and then they’re playful again. Have, have you found that with your kiddos?

Mia Wisinski: Yes. And, uh, it’s a question I get a lot, like, “Isn’t this dismissing their emotions if I’m trying to do this?” And I’m very big on just, I, I don’t think any expert or author or Instagram person can, can be attuned to your child in that moment.

Lael Stone: Yes.

Mia Wisinski: Only you can, and, and only you can know in your gut if this feels right or if it’s like, “Oh, this feels forced and doesn’t feel right right now.”

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: And, and, and that can change from child to child and even the same child from moment to moment. And there’s some games that my son loves sometimes, and then, and very early on, he learned to articulate, “I don’t wanna play that. No, I don’t wanna play that.” And I’m, “Oh, okay.” And I find that, you know, there are two, for me, like, two main rules where I don’t try playfulness, and one is if it’s like a safety thing, right?

I’m not gonna be like, “Whatever you do, don’t run in the street.” [laughs] You know, I’m gonna, I’m gonna be like, I’m not gonna be joking about that. And then two is any kind of distress. So, like, if they’re really emotionally upset, you know, think about how it would feel for us to be, like, sobbing and then someone, like, cracks a joke. But there’s a, there’s a spectrum, right?

Like, you can be cranky or grumpy or just, like, a little off, and, and you, it can feel good to have someone make you laugh and cheer you up. And there’s really no, like, rule or rubric for it, I don’t think, other than, like, you just have to be attuned and, and know your child and know yourself and, um, pay attention to their- … body language and their verbal cues, and is it making them more upset when you try it? Well, okay. Well, you know, it didn’t work, then move on. There was this one day where my son was whiny, and that sometimes can be, like, moving into, like, that really distressed, upset crying, but sometimes it’s just like he’s just a little bit hungry.

And, um, and so I was like, “Oh my goodness, I think I heard a Whinoceros.” And I, like, made it up on the spot, and I was really proud, and I was like, “And every time you whine, its horn grows longer.” And I, I was like, “Wow, this is so funny.” And he was laughing, you know, and he whined, and I, I was like, “There it is again.” You know?

And meanwhile, I’m chopping up the snacks and, like, trying to get him food as fast as I can, ‘cause I know that he just needs to eat.

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: And then I tried it another day, like, all excited to do the Whinoceros game again, and he was like, “No, I don’t want to play that.” You know? And I was like, “Okay, well, rest in peace, Whinoceros.” You know, same thing happened with, um, he wanted me to be these different characters for… He needed help in the bathroom, and I was like, “Hello, I’m the butt wiper.

Did you hire me?” And, and my cha- my name was Butt Wiper, and every day I was a different character. I was like an old wise butt wiper and the robot butt wiper 3000, and, and then he would, like, lead me around the house afterwards and be, “Look, Butt Wiper, look at this drawing I did today.” Like I was some new imaginary friend [laughs] named Butt Wiper, which was hilarious, but also, like, kind of sweet.

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: And then one day, I was like, “Time for the butt wiper.” And, and he was like, “No, I just want mommy.” And the, and, like, never, the butt wiper was never seen again, you know?

Lael Stone: Wow.

Mia Wisinski: It’s like, okay, that game’s over, and-

Lael Stone: Yep

Mia Wisinski: … that wasn’t even to solve any kind of problem, but, um, just to say, you know, sometimes we have to let it go.

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: Even when we really get a kick out of it, or it’s something that connected us.

Lael Stone: That was so creative. Like, come on.

Mia Wisinski: Come on. [laughs] Some of my best work. [laughs]

Lael Stone: I, I love your wisdom around that, because I absolutely agree wholeheartedly too. It is all about the attunement. It is all about knowing the capacity of our kiddos, knowing them deeply, reading their cues to know where we can lean in or where we need to just pull back a bit. And I think, for me, that is the key of parenting, full stop, is our attunement to our kiddos to see what, what is needed here. And also knowing, you know, each child is different.

They’re going to respond in different ways. So, I think it is, for me, I always think play is just one of the most amazing tools we have in our toolkit, but it’s one tool.

Mia Wisinski: Right.

Lael Stone: And then we have other tools where we’re just going to tune in and be quiet, and we have other tools where we’re just going to be super loving, and then we’ve got other tools where we’re going to set a beautiful limit. And, you know, they can get upset that we’ve said no and, and hold space for their feelings. So, I, I love just the wisdom you bring to that, which is really about the attunement. It’s always about the attunement with parenting. And, and I think also too, a really beautiful thing that you’re bringing up here too is that we can move into something playful, but if our kiddos sometimes have some trauma or something that’s distress in their system, you will sometimes see a look of distress on their face.

And that’s where it’s always really good to be like, “Oh, pull back from this. That maybe isn’t the right thing to be playing right now.”

Mia Wisinski: Mm, totally. And one of the best tips I think I learned from my friend Hayden, who’s a play therapist, is just, like, for, for tantrums and meltdowns, ‘cause I think a lot of people like to think of like, “Ooh, let me try to stop this meltdown,” which is something I learned from you early on with the Aware Parenting podcast. Like, no, we don’t need to stop every meltdown. They… It is good and healthy to cry.

Um, his advice was just to stop talking. Like, just-

Lael Stone: Yes

Mia Wisinski: … stop. “What’s wrong? What’s wrong? What’s wrong?” Because I think, you know, we tend to do that, and I know I want to know what’s wrong, and it’s…

Sometimes they’re not able to even tell us yet, ‘cause they just need to cry. And so, that has been one of the most empowering pieces of advice I’ve learned, is that you don’t have to fix or talk with words or get an answer. Like, you can just… Often when my daughter gets hurt, you know, and she’s just screaming, I don’t even know what happened. She bumped into the wall, you know, I’ll just hold her, and I’ll just breathe and let her scream, and I’ll just breathe, and I’ll just be quiet.

And so yes, I think there are all these different parts of parenting and all these different tools and all these different really helpful pieces of advice that we can… And wisdom that we can learn from each other. And then if we just settle into ourselves, we can, can tap into when is right to bring each one out. And I think in those times of big tantrums and meltdowns, that has been the, the most helpful thing for me, is just shutting up [laughs] and not saying anything. I really…

My friend, um, was over, and they were having a playdate. My son and his friend were having a playdate one day, and they were getting in this, these big screaming meltdowns about who was going to drive the toy car, you know, who’s going to sit in the driver’s seat. And then my daughter started crying, and then the baby started crying, and then everyone was just crying, and I just sat down on the curb. [laughs] And, and I just, I just smiled at my friend, and I almost, like, chuckled a little bit because I was like, “What are you going to do?” Like, everyone’s screaming.

No one can hear me anyway. And so I just sat there and let everyone scream for a few minutes, and I just, I just shut up. I stopped trying to control and, “Okay, it’s his turn, it’s his turn,” you know? And just-

Lael Stone: Yeah

Mia Wisinski: … let everyone get it out, and then we moved on.

Lael Stone: Yeah. And I totally love that. Like, I think in times as a mom when I actually didn’t know what to do, and I’d be like, “Ah, I’m trying this, I’m trying that, it’s not working,” the silence was usually the best tool. Because what I would find then is that my child would bring to me what they needed to help it move. So they would sometimes say things like, “Why aren’t you speaking?”

Or they would do things like, “Play this,” or they would make a silly noise, like they’d stick their tongue out me, at me, and then I’d stick my tongue out back. And, you know, it was like an invitation to play. Or, you know, it was… Sometimes the silence was, for me, it was like, “I don’t know what to do here, so I’m just going to wait for you to show me what you need next,” which can also be a really beautiful thing to do. Yes.

Mia Wisinski: I love that.

Lael Stone: Yeah, I love that. All right. I’m go- I want to put you on the spot a little bit, but I don’t think it is, because you are like an encyclopedia of play. But I would love to, for parents who are listening going, “Oh my God, this sounds amazing.” Well, first thing I’m going to tell you, go and get Mia’s app, because that will just guide you through, um, of what to do and ideas and play.

But if I was to just say a few ages of kids, like, what are your favorite games to play with them, you know, for, for certain ages? So if we started with, like, little people under, like, three, like little ones, because we can play with our little ones, what are some favorite things that you love to do with, with little ones under three?

Mia Wisinski: Oh, okay, I love this question, ‘cause, uh, my, um, daughter right now is almost two, and she’s just getting to that stage where she’s just getting so silly, and it’s fun. And really, I think the best thing is, like, is tuning into her. She loves when I mirror her. If she’s, like, in her own world, kinda twirling or dancing or stomping, and I just try to, like, copy her movements in real time, she gets a kick out of it and cracks up. And I just look into her eyes, and it’s like that really being present.

And, um, if she’s making a sound, I’ll try to match her pitch. Like, if she’s going, “La, la, la, la, la,” I’ll go, “La,” I’ll try to make it match perfectly, and she loves it, right?

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: Um, also, and this is, like, funny for all ages, even my son was doing it earlier today, you can be so lazy and do this. Like, you just go, “Buh,” and then you take your finger and go, “Buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh.” [laughs] Like, she started doing it, and we all try to talk to each other and, like, figure out what you’re saying. Like, “Oh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh.”

Lael Stone: [laughs]

Mia Wisinski: And I think that’s fun with toddlers who can’t talk yet, because it’s like you’re speaking… They get to be in on the conversation. It doesn’t… They understand everything, and you understand everything they’re saying, or you just pretend at least, you know? And there’s nothing that they’re missing out on.

I find sometimes at dinner, if we’re all talking, she starts to, like, you know, bang her spoon or, like, make noise, like, “Hey, look at me. Did you forget about me over here?” And, like, she doesn’t understand, you know? And so we can kind of make those silly sounds, and she loves that. So those are my, what’s coming to my mind.

Of course-

Lael Stone: Cool. I know

Mia Wisinski: … diaper changes, I always try to, uh… This isn’t really a game or anything, but just any chance to put her pants on my head or something where, where it doesn’t go, you know?

Lael Stone: Yeah.

Mia Wisinski: And sing a little song and, and make her laugh is something else I love to do with her.

Lael Stone: I love that. I love that. All right. What about kind of that four to six-year-old age group? I mean, there’s so…

That’s like the prime play space, isn’t it?

Mia Wisinski: Oh, I know.

Lael Stone: We know it’s that age.

Mia Wisinski: Yeah. So, okay, so I’ll just… I won’t go into any kind of, like, cooperation tools here. I’ll just, I’m just going into, like, games and just for the sake of fun.

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: Because actually, that’s one of my big philosophies too, is if we’re going to use play for cooperation, for tasks and routines, um, then first we have to start with just for fun, because otherwise, it, it’s not sustainable, and they’re gonna latch onto it, and, you know, we’re not having that true spirit of, like, just taking our-

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm

Mia Wisinski: … not taking ourselves seriously. So I’ll just go into, like, the things just for fun. I mentioned I make the face, you make the sound. I love collaborative storytelling with him, even if it’s me telling most of the story, um, because kids have the best curveballs they’ll throw. It’s like, “Okay, and what was this character’s name?

And then what happened?” And I say something, it’s like, “Oh,” and then you just go with it. Um, we were on a walk the other day, and I… Everyone was hot and tired, and we had, like, two and a half miles left, and I was like, “All right, we’re gonna tell a story.” And it ended up being about these frogs and this fisherman, and, and then, uh, my son’s friend, it was his first time playing this with us, and I was like, “Well, then what happened?”

And he said, “He farted candy out of his head.”

Lael Stone: [laughs]

Mia Wisinski: And I was like, “Wow.” And they’d never seen anything, and they were so excited, and they were scooping it up in their, in their trick-or-treat baskets that they carried with them year-round, you know? And, like, it just… And then the story took, like, a hilarious turn because a four-year-old’s giving… Actually, he’s three.

Our friend is three, so… [laughs] But my son will make up the most hilarious character names and plot twists. And so making up funny stories together and, and record them on your voice memo, because it’s so fun to listen back to. Also, like, if you tell a 20-minute story together, you just bought yourself 20 more minutes, ‘cause then you can just play af- press play afterwards and let them listen to it [laughs] while you go about your business.

Lael Stone: [laughs]

Mia Wisinski: Um, but also, and this is something I did with my theater students that I… It’s really fun for all ages. My stepdaughter, who’s 10, still loves it, but my son too, when he has that physical energy that’s just like, “I need to channel it into something,” um, I throw out acting prompts, like-

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm

Mia Wisinski: … “You are a dandelion blowing in the wind,” or, “You are a, a baby’s diaper exploding,” or, you know, I’ll make them gross, or, “You’re like a baby snake learning how to slither for the first time.” And if he, if I need him to, like, calm down, I’ll give him, like, “You’re a bear that just ate 40 pounds of cheeseburgers, and you’re climbing into your cave to slumber,” and to, like, slow him down. Or, um, “You’re a balloon, and they just let all the air out, and you’re flying around the room.” And, and he gets so into it, and he loves…

Like, I feel like this age loves putting on a show.

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: Like, they love to put on a show for you. So if you’re giving them these, you know, invitations, you don’t have to be up there acting these things out, because, I mean, you can, and that’s really fun too, but, uh, the truth is, most days we don’t have the [laughs] energy at the-

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm

Mia Wisinski: … at the end of the day. But if you can throw out silly acting prompts like that, I try to think of a movement that I want to encourage him to do and then think of, like, what kind of thing would do that movement.

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: So if it’s exploding, maybe you’re a volcano, or if it’s crawling, maybe you’re a baby kitten.

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: Um, and then it’s always gonna make me laugh, and they love making you laugh too.

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: And so those are my go-tos for that age, I think.

Lael Stone: So beautiful. And then for our kind of slightly older kids, so like, you know, that kind of seven, eight, you know, up until, like, tweens, ‘cause tweens get a little bit more… I mean, they still need to play, but they also kind of, you know, it’s different in what we’re doing. What would you suggest for them?

Mia Wisinski: Uh, this is where my favorite, uh, and this is why I’m having so much fun with my stepdaughter, improv games. I mean, just straight up steal from improv. My all-time favorite game is One Word Story. I play this with my sister, who is two years younger than me. We’re both in our late 30s.

She was just here visiting for the weekend. We played… We went live on Instagram and took requests-

Lael Stone: [laughs]

Mia Wisinski: … and [laughs] made up a story about magical clogs. … that we’re, like, s- stuck in a river, and then an eagle swooped down, caught him before the going over the waterfall, and we’re doing this one word at a time. Like, we’re-

Lael Stone: Right

Mia Wisinski: … alternating one word at a time, which is actually very hard to do until you get in sync with someone, and we’ve been playing all our life. So, I love doing that with my, um, stepdaughter. I loved doing that with my theater students. If you need, like, a little bit more of a, a structured game, like, we can play an example right now, Leanne, me and you. It’s like, you know the game Fortunately, Unfortunately?

Lael Stone: Oh, yeah.

Mia Wisinski: Um, where someone starts off with a, “Unfortunately, um, unfortunately, I dropped a weight on my toe this morning while I was working out.” And then the next person, and this is actually true.

Lael Stone: It is.

Mia Wisinski: And I’ll say, “Fortunately, that means that maybe I don’t have to go to that event that I didn’t want to go to on Sunday.” [laughs] And then I’ll say, “Unfortunately, I had just bought a, a sequin tube top that I was excited to show off to everyone.” Right? And it can get sillier and sillier, and it doesn’t have to be real, but we all do hope Lil’s toe feels better soon.

Lael Stone: Yeah.

Mia Wisinski: So that’s a, a good one. There’s also alphabet conversation. Once your kids know the alphabet, I love this one because there’s no, like, logic to it, right? So if I was playing with you, I might say, “Alice, it’s so good to see you.” And then you’d say something to me starting with B.

Lael Stone: “Because we’re gonna go to the park later.”

Mia Wisinski: “Can you believe the park is gonna have free hot dogs?” Right? And then you say something with D, and we try to make it all the way to Z. Um, so I kind of call them conversation games because they’re great for, like, riding in the car, or if you’re waiting for your food at a restaurant or waiting in line, and it’s like… Or even just after school instead of, “So how was your day?”

And they’re like, “Good.” And you’re like, “Great talk.” You know? Like, kind of starting with a, a conversation game, like Fortunately, Unfortunately, or alphabet, or telling a one-word story. And then, of course, we love to do one-word commercial, where you’re, like, trying to make up a fake product, and there’s endless opportunities for it.

But what it really is doing is just making something up on the spot together. But just making something up together just for the sake of fun, and, and there’s no limit to it. It can get as silly and nonsensical as you want, and I think that’s really freeing for that age because they’re starting to feel like, “Oh, do I need to be cool? Do I need to talk a certain way or not be weird?” And with these games, it’s…

You’re… It’s okay to be weird because you’re just pretending, and you’re just playing.

Lael Stone: Yes. And do you know what I love so much about it, is it just… It is opening up creativity, which we don’t necessarily have enough of. And we see the impact of screens on kids and children’s inability to be bored now, and I think playing games like this, particularly with words and letters and stuff like that, is just opening up this creative thinking. And I think that is so beautiful and rich for us as humans.

Mia Wisinski: Mm. Yes. And honestly, sometimes when I can’t sleep, [laughs] I’ll, like, play the alphabet game in my own head because it helps you get your mind off of all the other stuff swirling around in there, um, that kids have too, you know? And, and it helps you really be together, um, in the moment and not think about all the other stuff. So it’s really great for that too.

Lael Stone: That’s beautiful. Um, one last thing I really want to just touch on is there was this divine, um, video you posted on Instagram, which a few people sent me. Uh, they didn’t know that I knew you. And it was a game with you and your husband, and your son is passing messages. Like, you’re brushing your teeth.

You’re just sitting there brushing your teeth, and he is coming and going, “Dad said,” and then made up this thing, and then you say a message back, and he’s got to deliver the message back. And it is just so adorable because you can hear your son just cackling with laughter. I mean, you’re laughing as well. I mean, just the beautiful connection that’s going on within your family, but the playfulness between you and your husband as well. And I just can’t help but think about the modeling that’s going on for your beautiful kiddos in those moments of the playfulness that you two are sharing together.

Like, what do you see in, in how powerful this can be for our relationships as well?

Mia Wisinski: Oh, yes. I love that question. I, uh, like, someday I want to start, like, Playful Heart Marriaging account. [laughs] Because playfulness is what made me fall in love with my husband. I was not expecting to meet him.

I was on this tour, musical theater tour, and he was not one of the performers. He was, like, the tech guy building the sets and doing lights. He was very quiet and soft-spoken, and I never thought he would be silly. But one night on the bus, I, I was like, “Hey, let’s turn off the sound on the TV and talk for the characters.” Like, that was my idea of a real fun, wild Friday night, and everyone said, “No.”

Like, you know? [laughs] And he was like, “I’ll play.” And he, he played with me, and I also love to turn upside down and draw eyes on my chin and, and turn around and make my chin like a, a face, like a chin face, you know? That’s kind of my, like, my thing throughout the years. I’ve always, like, forced my friends to do that with me, and now I can’t wait to, um, do it with my kids every chance I get.

But he played along with that too, and I was like, “Wow, I think I’m in love.” Like, I, I found someone that will, like, play with me, you know? And, and this, like, it was like our inner children, like, reaching out to each other, like, “Come play with me,” you know? And now we get to do that with our kids, but I’ll say that this season’s been hard. It’s like we’re both working really hard.

Sometimes we’re like ships in the night, and just like tonight, you know, he got home from work, and I’m like, “There’s your quesadilla. I’m going upstairs. Bye. You got the kids? Okay.”

Like, you know? And, and there’s very little time for, like, talking as much as we used to or intimacy like it used to be. It’s just different right now. We’ve got little kids, and it’s very physically and emotionally demanding in all the ways. And everyone sleeps in our bed.

It’s like, it’s just, you know, we’re very, very immersed in it. And sometimes flirting is that. It’s like, this is how we flirt. Um, someone left a hilarious comment on that, which was like, “You are somehow playing with your kid, making content, taking care of your dental hygiene, and I think flirting with your husband at the same time.” [laughs]And I was like, “Yeah, that’s hilarious.”

But, uh, that is… We are flirting by saying like, “Well, tell Daddy that I love him so much that if his butt cheek fell off, I would loan him one of mine.” You know, and just trying to make it as gross as possible. And then he’s sending one back, and it’s like we’re flirting through our kid, you know? And it’s-

Lael Stone: Absolutely.

Mia Wisinski: And sometimes he’ll sneak in some- something in there that I’m like, “Okay, that was like over my kid’s head, but I know what you’re trying to say,” you know? [laughs] But, and so yeah, it’s, it is… It just comes back to that feeling of safety and like everyone feels better when they’re laughing. And even if we can’t-

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm

Mia Wisinski: … be going on these like hot romantic dates all the time anymore, not like we really ever did that anyway, [laughs] we can show our affection and love for each other through playfulness. And it is really a love language. I’ve-

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm

Mia Wisinski: … I’ve heard like Amy Poehler, I love how she, she says, “Fun, dumb things are safety and a love language.” When you can be just like doing fun, dumb, silly things together with someone, that is as good as it gets in a relationship. And so I’m grateful, very, very grateful that that was something that he already had when I met him, and it’s, I think, why we… One of the reasons we clicked so well and one of the reasons we are able to have this big value in our house of kind of always trying to make time for that, even if it’s we’re multitasking, brushing our teeth, which I learned from that video, by the way, that apparently you’re supposed to floss before you brush, and I had no idea.

Lael Stone: What? Oh, no.

Mia Wisinski: I got like, I got hundreds and hundreds of DMs about it. So-

Lael Stone: Really?

Mia Wisinski: So just blew your mind with that. Yeah. I’ve been trying it lately, and it’s, it, it works. I, I think it’s-

Lael Stone: Okay. Um, that, that-

Mia Wisinski: You know?

Lael Stone: I, I’m 51, and I’m learning that for the first time.

Mia Wisinski: I know.

Lael Stone: What?

Mia Wisinski: Yeah.

Lael Stone: Whoa. I don’t want that to be the takeaway from this conversation. [laughs]

Mia Wisinski: [laughs]

Lael Stone: That, I love that. I just wanna say, I mean, I just, I love that, that you found someone you can play with. And there’s two things that pop up for me is what you just said then about let out inner child’s play, which I just think is so beautiful, ‘cause that’s really what a lot about, what a lot of this is about for us as adults, is allowing the inner child within us to be playful, to connect, to, to get their needs met. And so I just love that you bring that through. And, you know, I’ve been with my husband, Mike, for like 29 years now, and he’s super playful.

And I, and, you know, I’m usually the one that’s a bit more serious and, you know, locked in. And he will always be playful to try and pull me out of that, which is beautiful. And there’s some days where I’m like, “Grr,” like, you know, “Leave me alone.” But I just see he is like, “No, the, the, you know, we’re gonna last, like the more playful and the more we laugh together.” And we still, and we do, even after all these years.

And that’s what I love. You know, his cheekiness and the playfulness is so beautiful. So I mean, it can annoy the crap out of me sometimes, but that’s when I’m not in my playful state where I need to probably be more playful. And it, and, and when I’m getting irritated by it, I’m like, “Oh my God, Lael, stop. Like soften, play.

You know, this is good for everybody.” So he’s, he’s the play master in our house, which I’m very grateful for.

Mia Wisinski: Oh, I love that. I love that. And it is easier said than done sometimes. It really, it’s-

Lael Stone: Yeah.

Mia Wisinski: Like, it’s okay to be cranky sometimes. It’s okay. But it is, you’re right, um, sometimes I feel like we, like double down on it. Like, “No, I, I wanna be serious right now.” And then it’s like, “Why?

Why? Why do I wanna be serious right now?”

Lael Stone: Yeah.

Mia Wisinski: “I don’t know.” Okay. And when we can kind of like shrug it off and be like, “Okay, well, I didn’t, I don’t have to. Nothing actually is an emergency right now.”

Lael Stone: Yes.

Mia Wisinski: Sometimes that’s really nice, even if we can’t do it all the time, just kind of like checking in with ourselves about it.

Lael Stone: Yeah. Beautiful. All right. To finish off, um, you know, I talk a lot about imprints, about the im- imprints we have on our beautiful children, like that inner voice they’re gonna have in their head. What are the imprints that you hope your beautiful kiddos carry with them from being in your family so that when they’re 25 and I’m chatting to them, they’re gonna be like, “Oh, this was what, you know, mom and dad, you know, imprinted on me”?

Mia Wisinski: Oh, that’s such a good question, and it makes me wanna cry even though I don’t know the answer I’m about to say yet. [laughs] I, I hope that, I hope that they will carry laughter and lightheartedness and not taking themselves too seriously into their relationships, whether it be friendships or coworkers or romantic relationships, and, and hold that as kind of a standard of like, “This is how I’ve learned to love and be shown love, um, by being able to be my full, authentic, weird self.” You know, I think that’s what it is, Lael. There’s a saying I learned from someone in thea- um, “The only way to be weird in theater is to be afraid of being weird.” And I think that’s so counterintuitive to this society that, where we have to be edgy and cool, and that never worked with me.

I always felt like, “I’m not cool. Like, I’m just, I’m weird.” I don’t think anyone is, you know? It’s, every, it’s a mask. And so I, I think the imprint I want is that they don’t have to, to wear this mask of, or worrying about being cool, and that they can be silly and weird and lighthearted and not be afraid to show that part of themselves-

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm

Mia Wisinski: … to someone, because that is where the most beautiful connection and relationships happen. And I think the more the world has of that, the warmer and more loving and empathetic, like I said it before, it trickles all down, it would be.

Lael Stone: Mm-hmm.

Mia Wisinski: So I hope that they feel empowered to, as much as they can, I know it’ll be hard through the teen years, but to not worry what other people think of them in, in that regard is, is I hope. I don’t know if that was a- Straightforward answer or jumbled, but all of the above [laughs] is what I have done.

Lael Stone: I love that. I love that. And I think, darling, you know, when I talk about imprints, it’s what, what children are watching and experiencing, and I think you are doing a magnificent job in setting them up for that in, in how you turn up in the world. And, you know, I mean, I, I know that this is birthed from you wanting to be a parent in a certain way and hold this space and heal and all the beautiful things, but, you know, your beautiful gift and your gorgeous weirdness is like magic for everybody. [laughs] I’m just like, it is a balm for everybody.

I’m like, “I wanna come to your house and play. I just wanna hang out,” ‘cause it just-

Mia Wisinski: Oh, I would love that

Lael Stone: … you can radiate from, radiate from you. It’s so beautiful. So, so beautiful.

Mia Wisinski: Thank you, Lael.

Lael Stone: All right. To finish off, darling, lovely Mia, what would you like people to know about what you’ve got going on? Where can they find your beautiful work? What do you want them to know?

Mia Wisinski: Ah, thanks for asking. Well, I am an, a millennial, so I’m on Instagram the most. That’s where you’ll find me if you’re there. I do have a TikTok. I don’t know what I’m doing.

Don’t ask me about it. Um, [laughs] and in terms of resources I have, um, I have free little resources I put out now and then. I have a free weekly email where I give you a little reflection on something maybe playful or silly that happened in my week or, or not, or a time where I wanted to be and I couldn’t, and then a little, like, invitation for something to try. I do have the apps bundle, which is, um, it has different games. This is another good one for, for the older genre, by the way, is the Would You Rather games with really silly-

Lael Stone: Really good

Mia Wisinski: … like, would you rather conversation prompts and the, the acting prompts. Like I said, if you just are like, “That sounds great, but I can’t think of them,” you can tap a button and I’ll think of over 1,500 for you-

Lael Stone: [laughs]

Mia Wisinski: … I’ve put in there from my weird brain. So if you want r- uh, just a, like, a done for you, just, like, tap a button and have funny prompts to connect over, that’s that. I also have the… If you wanna learn how to play different improv games, I made a collection called Famprov, family improv, uh, with videos of me and my sister and her partner, who are professional improv performers, demonstrating how to play a lot of our favorite games and lots of laughter.

And yes, I pee my pants twice on the video ‘cause I’m just like, it’s very real and weird and silly. And so, um, and then I have a, the Activate Play Mode course that dives a little bit more into how to use play for the tasks and routines. And so there’s a little something for, um, any of those levels of, you know, age and base and, you know, what you’re looking for a little bit of support in.

Lael Stone: Mm. That is beautiful. And I cannot recommend highly enough checking out Mia’s work and all these things because it is s- just one of the most powerful tools you can have, not only as a parent, but just as a human. So please go check it out. It’ll be all in our show notes and, and all the links and stuff will be there.

Thank you so much for being with me. Like, I’m just been smiling this entire, um, podcast, and I just, I love what you do. I love what you stand for. I just love the light that you spread, just you being you and, and, you know, sharing this beautiful magic with the world. So thank you.

Thank you for being here, and thank you for just doing what you do.

Mia Wisinski: Thank you, Lael. You’re the best. Thanks for what you do and, and for, you know, supporting me when my baby was in the NICU and, and just always being a internet friend across the world. And I’m glad we got to talk face-to-face for more than just, you know, a few voice memos here and there.

Lael Stone: Yeah.

Mia Wisinski: This was really nice.

Lael Stone: Beautiful. Thank you, Mia. I hope you enjoyed this podcast, everybody. I hope you go and have some playfulness, some silliness, and, and don’t forget to be human. Thanks for sharing this time with me.

You can find my book, Own Your Story, at bookshops or listen to the audiobook on Audible. I even read it myself. You can stay connected with Humans, being. on Instagram, Facebook, or YouTube. We love to hear from you, so please leave a comment, question, or contemplation. And visit my website, laelstone.com.au, where you’ll find lots of great resources and courses for you to explore.

This podcast is produced by Nigel Carboon, recorded by the crew at We Make Online Videos, designed by Mike Gaál, and our original music is created by Josh Reed.

Humans, being.™ is produced on the lands of the Bunurong and Wathaurong people. We pay respect to their unique and diverse cultures and to elders past, present and future.

Until next time, stay connected, and don’t forget to be human.